From Psychotherapy to Shamanism:

From Psychotherapy to Shamanism: Conversations between two contemporary shaman psychologists

By Ellie Zarrabian, Ph.D.

Sufism

In his works, Rumi often speaks of the heart as a mirror for the soul. As a historical note, mirrors from the ancient times, unlike the mirrors we have today, were usually covered with a rust like material that needed to be polished on a daily basis so that the person could see their own image in it with clarity. This process of polishing the mirror called “saighal” in Farsi was an arduous task that was very labor and time intensive. So much so that servants were put in charge of this dreaded task so that the masters of the households could have a clear mirror to gaze into and see their own image. Rumi uses this mirror as a metaphor to explain that the work of the Sufi is being able to see through the heart with clarity. Like the mirror, to see the image of the Divine with clarity, one must partake in this daily arduous ritual of “saighaling” the heart and mind. The work of the Sufi takes years and years to perfect, even life times.

In Sufism like in many other spiritual traditions of the world one way to know it is the heart that speaks and not the critic, fear or ego is that heart only speaks the language of love. But of course being able to clearly hear and speak this language is where the work lies. In Sufism there is no “wrong path.” There are many paths that lead to the Divine. We learn and become more adept at listening and acting from the heart. When life doesn’t seem to go “our” way, our emotions are the indicators to what we need to do to find the path to the heart again. Sufism is a state of being or an existence based on the unity and oneness of all creation. The work of the Sufi is to remove barriers in the mind and heart that get in the way of living in unity. The outcome of this work is living in a continuous state of love and ecstasy regardless of one’s outward life circumstances. The path of the Sufi is the direct experience of the Divine (God, Lord, Spirit, Higher Power).

Heart of a Sufi (Part I)
Post #1
May 25, 2009 at 2:23pm

Michael (Mikkal) it’s good to hear from you. I too hope we can begin sohbat or discourse here with other interested individuals. I know you’ve been doing Shamanic work from the Native American tradition for a while. How did you come to find Rumi and Hafez?

Post #2
May 25, 2009 at 8:58pm

Hi Ellie:

I discovered Rumi through a dream that I was inside an Elephant which was also a kind of carriage. Inside where rich, oriental carpets. I went off to a bookstore looking for an image of that carpet, found the essential Rumi, translated by Coleman Barks; it had that kind of oriental carpet. I took the book home and began reading and was thunderstruck. His profound mystical vision so heart open and filled with Eros was much like the Andean shamanism I was studying.

The message of Rumi and my teacher don Alverto Taxo had so much the same flavor of love. That was 15 years ago now. The poem that first grabbed me was the Guest House (the vast space of the soul was revealed to me in that and how to greet each thing—the same thing I was being taught in the shamanic lineage). My favorite line from a quatrain is this: “Let yourself be pulled, by the stronger pull of what you really love.”

I still read Rumi every morning as part of my prayer and centering process.
Thanks for the delicious question.
Mikkal

Post #3
You wrote on May 26, 2009 at 10:27am

Hi Mikkal,

Thank you for sharing your most amazing story. It is quite powerful. I especially love the dream image you had of being inside a carriage surrounded with fine, rich Persian tapestry. I also love the “Guest House” and always quote it when I teach.

For those of you who are taking part in this discussion, I like to invite you to share your own personal experience on how you found Rumi or Sufism. Often such experiences are so profoundly rich and compelling and can be a spark for igniting the same fire in others. For those of you who don’t know much about Rumi or Sufism please feel free to share your own attraction/connection to the Middle Eastern culture or spirituality.

As for me, growing up a Jew in Iran, I discovered Sufism or actually the Dervishes of Iran when I was about five or six y/o. I was on a school trip to the local museum in Tehran. It was a big place but I distinctly remember a small, dimly lit room in the corner of the museum. I found myself drawn to that room. I remember leaving the group and going in there by myself. The room was filled with all sorts of artifacts, paraphernalia, regalia, etc. of the Dervishes of Iran. I didn’t know who or what they were at the time but I remember an amazing sensation come over me. I couldn’t shake that feeling off and that same evening I asked my father to tell me about the Dervishes. It was then that my long, drawn out relationship with Sufism began. Also during that same time frame the revolution was breaking out in Iran and the country was in a state of chaos. As Jews we were afraid for our lives and were planning on fleeing the country. Amidst the chaos and the turbulence of war, I remember a small, yet reassuring flame that was ignited in my heart letting me know that I would be okay and that I just needed to be a witness to what was happening around me. Twenty or so years later when I was studying the Masnawi in Farsi with my teacher in Berkeley I read the following poem which roughly translates to, “Dearest one, do not be mislead by the notion of separation, for you, my beloved, I am never separate from. Tell me, can you hear the sound of one hand clapping by itself? Can the beautiful sound of the reed by heard without the reed player? Can the thirst of the man wandering in the desert be quenched without the water? Can a flame be started without the initial spark? Do not be mistaken lover that it is only you seeking me, for I too have been longing to be known by you.” It was then that I practically dropped to my knees sobbing for it was then that I understood the meaning of my longing and sense of separation and what it was that I had been seeking all my life. But most profound was the knowing that this longing was from both directions. As above, so below. Since then, I continue to burn in rapture.

Post #4

Cmichael Smith wrote on May 27, 2009 at 11:04am

One thing that struck me about your FB page is the commonality with the Sufi ‘remembering who you are’ and the shamanic focus, in my own client work, along the same lines…I help/facilitate people finding or remembering the heart, their essential core of their aliveness, being, and loving….–living from the heart brings them more fully on line…and the deepest work is right into the transpersonal ‘I Am’ which, for this shamanic psychotherapist, is the fundamental soul retrieval. So I always begin by helping my clients and students find, listen to and open their hearts. Rumi, Hafiz, and other Sufi masters offer such congruent wisdom. Their imagery so succinct and elegant cuts right to the ‘heart’ of the matter. I use what I call ‘core’ questions to facilitate this process.

I would love to hear more about how you use your Sufi resources, Ellie, in working with people.

Post #5
You wrote on May 27, 2009 at 3:42pm

Hi Mikkal,

What a great question. I don’t think I’ve ever thought about “how I do it” and certainly never talked or written about it. It’s more of a felt experience, a guidance lead from my intuitive faculties and not a technique I think about on a conscious level. Although of course I am also trained as a psychotherapist and that training is also in me. But it seems to be different with every person and yet the same.
Let’s see if I can put it into words. When I work with people, I drop into a heart space within myself. It just happens I don’t do anything to get there. Once I feel connected to my heart, I feel their heart. A doorway then opens. I am then able to feel the degree of connection or lack thereof. The connection is also of course with other forces and realms as well. Spirit guides come into the sessions when there is enough openness. I then seem to be able see, feel, know and talk from a place that encompasses different realities, different worlds, different states of being but all converge at one point and that is between me and the person sitting in front of me. The more openness there is, the more depth we can both enter into and always with guidance. If there is resistance, I seem to be directed to the direction where there is more openness. I seem to steer the ship but I don’t direct the course. The ship flows in the divine waters or on the level of the transpersonal as you referred to it. The intensity is welcomed as there is always calmness in the knowing that we are in safe waters. I don’t think about how or where or what of our process. I just move with the energy that flows between us. I recognize that we are in a heart space even if it may not seem like it. When I fall out of the heart center I can tell as the nature of our interaction dramatically changes. Then if I can, I find a way back into the heart center and resume connection. Whew…great question and a hard one to answer.
How is this similar/different from your felt experience when you work with people?
Ellie

Post #8
Cmichael Smith wrote on May 28, 2009 at 8:40pm

In general my way of working with a client or student is much the same as yours, which is by the way, very solid. Nice, Ellie!

At the beginning of a session I ‘clear a space’, which is a putting aside of my own concerns and personal issues, and making room within myself for the person, that mysterious being looking out through a pair of eyes at me. I try to find this ‘person’ as soon as possible, and want to know how they are faring in life, or how things are going this week. I want to know what it is they want in this situation, what may be in the way of that and so on, and what a way forward may feel like. But first I must attune and open.
Inwardly I attune to my own heart and allow it to open and embrace this person, unguarded. Generally my opening invites the client to open the heart, and then it is a kind of being inside each other. A deep intimacy comes to presence. We are in it together.

There is a feeling or felt-sense component to this, and an intuitive process. With the heart’s capacity to feel, I keep hold of my client, of what they are saying and processing, and what’s in the background of all this. My spirit-guides may also come into play so that I am feeling their presence and point of view too. I keep silent a lot so the client can explore, dipping into what is unclear, but can come into view if they also will keep a hold of the ‘feel’ of whatever they are grappling with. I do teach them to grapple and inwardly inquire, as needed.

I also teach my clients, at some point early in therapy (or if a student, early in apprenticeship) how to find, use and follow the heart’s own inherent navigational system (NGS). I have a little practice I called “D.I.G.S” for developing this. The heart can communicate a sense of organismic rightness/wrongness and this can be detected through feeling. (If interested you can learn about this on my website, articles page of www.cmichaelsmith.com).

This little practice, which only takes a minute or two to teach, helps the client to easily find and know how the heart is speaking to them, and what it wants and doesn’t want. When Rumi says “let yourself be silently drawn by what you really love” he is referring to the way one is ‘drawn forward’ by and through the heart. When one is drawn forward or towards something, one may also be drawn away from something else…and this can be physically felt, albeit subtly, in the middle of the body. So I teach this experientially so he or she can follow the path the Heart traces for them one little step at a time. Then the client or student has a way to inwardly follow their heart, know what it wants, as opposed to what the mind wants, or impulse systems want, or what external influences want. It gives them a kind of inner compass, and a way to discriminate the source of their wanting. The direction and desire coming through the heart has a true quality, is authentic, and has a consciousness to it different from the head, it is more the way a root knows how to find a water source, or the way leaves find a source of sunlight. This kind of practice can help one find a way forward through a particular problem situation, or find a whole life path.

Ultimately, for me, the inner Source speaks through the heart. We can think of that in many ways: Essence, Being, Spirit, Divinity, and the ‘Tao in the heart’. Listening to the heart, honoring and protecting the heart’s invitations, so we can enact them in our living, is the basic premise of this way that I work.
Thanks for the question and opportunity to share.

Mikkal

Post #9
You wrote on May 30, 2009 at 8:43am

Hi Mikkal,
Thank you for your detailed response. As always it is very rich and great food for thought.

I thought about the tool you have come up with to teach people to tap into their own heart center and work from there. I would be interested in seeing what happens with teaching D.I.G.S to children as well and see how they work with it. Do you have any experience with that?

I also know in the Sufi tradition and practice, “beauty” plays a great role. In my own life, I’ve always been profoundly affected by beauty and by that I mean a certain order within the chaos that radiates not only as a feast for the eyes but also the mind and heart. It could be found anywhere in life, whether it’s in an organization that is run well, a leader or manager who displays great leadership qualities, or patterns generated in nature or geometric shapes, as well as patterns and sounds found in art and poetry. I also always focus in this area with people and try to tap into what uplifts their soul through a connection with beauty. I wonder if in your tradition and lineage this concept plays a part?
Ellie

Post #10
Cmichael Smith wrote on May 30, 2009 at 7:38pm
Hi Ellie, Thank you for your comments and delicious questions.

Re Have I tried D.I.G.S. with Children?

I haven’t tried it with young children, but have with teenagers who are aloof or distant, or depressed. Young children come into the world pretty much heart open and instinctually follow their NGS until it gets shut down through growing up and learning the rules of parents and society, becoming good boys and good girls, and trying to fit in, and please. Soon children have internalize the voice of external authority, it becomes their inner Critic or Judge, (Freud called it ‘super-ego’) and it tends to put down the heart’s natural way of knowing and spontaneous expressions and delight. Most young children will go for what they are drawn towards every time, until the conditioning and pressure to grow up (fit in) causes a kind of ‘primal repression’ or ‘primal closure’. Then D.I.G.S. might help those children who are shut down. Few people make it to adulthood heart open. That’s where spiritual awakening and practice comes in. I pray for the day when we have learned to educate and nurture our children without shutting down the heart.

Regarding beauty and the spiritual path:

Yes it is a big portal for me into the Holy. You know the ‘Good, the True, and the Beautiful ‘from Plato to Ibn Sine has been celebrated as divine attributes or names. For me, the open heart perceives and delights in beauty everywhere. Significant beauty seems to evoke moods of appreciation, awe and mystery, and adoration, arouses rapture. And that concept closely related to it, “sublime” is a kind of shattering of form and structures of mind that shows you a stunning or breath-taking depth of reality you previously were not in touch with. The sublime tends to evoke ecstasy; enabling you to transcend the you which you think you know…or the divinity you think you know. You can experience the sublime in natural phenomena– a thunder storm, or inexhaustibly prodigious power like Niagara falls, —but also through a ‘sobhat’ such as Rumi and Shams-i-Trabiz frequently entered into. In my work with clients and students, I try to bring the sessions, I call them Fire Talks, close to the feel of a sobhat as possible, and there is the ambiance of beauty and holiness. I operate on the principle of ‘Corazon cura Corazon’ (heart heals heart). For me a shamanic path is a path of the heart, one that opens you to the beauty in the earth and natural phenomena around you, and in all dimensions, and in every being you meet. I recall that simple Pawnee chant, thanks to Joseph Campbell, the “follow your bliss” guy

“Beauty before me…
Beauty behind me.
Beauty to the right of me
Beauty to the left of me…
Beauty to the right.
Beauty above me….
Beauty below me.
I’m on the pollen path!”

I find this earth-spirituality finely meshes with Rumi-esque bliss, beauty, and rapture.
Mikkal

Post #11
Cmichael Smith wrote on May 30, 2009 at 8:15pm

Ps Ellie: My comments on children above does not really address therapeutic issues involving conflicts with sibling and parents, the necessity of learning rules, including the golden rule, and some of the stuff you may work with clinically.—The subject of another dialogue.

Post #12
You wrote on May 30, 2009 at 10:39pm
Hi Mikkal,

Yes, that’s what I was referring to, helping children deal with life from a heart centered place when dealing with difficult family members or situations or when having conflict at school, or with peer pressure etc. I remember working with some children some years back. Of course the parents were very aware and had brought the kids to work with me. There was one particular child I’ll never forget. He was about 6 at the time and was heavily into “imaginary friends” and situations that had to do with being a soldier, killing and violence. I did a shamanic ritual with him invoking his spirit guides to come and help and it was amazing to see how he responded. He could clearly “see” what was happening and quickly began to dialogue with the spirit world. I just became an observer. At the end of the session, he was so grateful that he started to bless me. I remember he sat right up in lotus position and with such conviction, wisdom and clarity began to give me different kinds of blessings. I remember feeling moved to the point of tears because I knew I was in the presence of a Holy One.

Also, thank you for your feedback on “beauty.” What you wrote is so complete and that poem just remarkable.

Ellie

Post #13
Cmichael Smith wrote on May 31, 2009 at 7:03am
Hi Ellie:

Whatever ’shamanic ritual’ you used with the boy was bang on. Somehow, through contact with his guides, he saw he was off center, then naturally realigned via his NGS. I love stories like this, sowing the sacred at work in healing process, thank you for sharing it! I do not work with children, so have not had opportunity to try the D.I.G.S. with kids in therapy. But your work shows there is always more than one way.

That knowing and observing being in the presence of the Holy One in a therapy session and as a client is encountering it, is a blessing for the healer as well. I recall working with a woman who suffered childhood abuse. She had a little girl part that was very afraid and had dissociated and yet this part kept her sexuality out of life. Every time I tried to contact this child part, the woman would go into a preverbal blathering, kind of like lalation, and start wrything uncontrollably. I would then back off fearing the therapy was moving in a regressive manner. (my professional ego in the way)

One session happened in which she went into this blathering lalation, this time through hint from my own guides I encouraged her to amplify it (my professional ego getting out of the way), and as she did, I thought I heard the sound of a sacred syllable, she got louder and louder, it was clear a worshipful chant, close in sound (shabd) to “aum mani padme aum” and then her wrything became a dance, and as she danced and chanted this little dissociated little girl part was able to come back on line. This released the block to sexual energy and provided a vehicle for it to return. It became clear to us both, in time, that they way to bring her sexuality back on line was through practice of this chant and amazing rhyming dance the Holy One was giving her. It was sacred eroticism, and looked like belly dancing and tantra combined some yoga asana formations.

In these moments we are hollow bone witnesses to the action of the Holy One.

I would love to hear more about the ’shamanic ritual’ you did with this boy.

Thank you for these lovely discussions.
Mikkal

Post #14
You wrote on June 1, 2009 at 11:42am
Hi Mikkal,

I want to first take the time to really appreciate the exchange we are having here. With you being in Michigan and myself here in Los Angeles, we are truly blessed for having access to technology like this which allows us to communicate so quickly when otherwise it would be nearly impossible if not very labored.

Also, sharing information about the sacred and the experiences that we each individually have had in regards to it and the different healing modalities makes it even more pronounced when shared at this level. It is my hope that conversations like this continue among healers of different traditions around the globe. I am guessing that you are probably on the same track and have perhaps even begun doing that with your own Crow’s Nest discussion site. If so, my blessings to you and may you continue to see it grow and flourish.

In response to your inquiry about the ritual with the boy, when I worked with the few children who came my way was when I had just started doing this work with a woman whom at first was my own healer and then later initiated me into becoming a healer. It was apparent early on that I already was very familiar with this kind of work and that I just needed the space and the opportunity to let it flow out of me.

This woman was seeing many clients at the time and with some of them she was at an impasse. She had asked me to sit in these sessions with her. At that time I would follow her lead to begin the sessions. We would have a long drawn out process for becoming clear, and then centered before we would begin the healing. These sessions would begin by first having the clients lie down on a table in a dimly lit room. We would then play a chant that was centering for both of us then a prayer to invoke the spirit world, followed by inner/outer guidance and direction to lead the healing sessions.

Of course every session was different, some required hands on healing, some just talking, and some in silence. With this boy it was apparent that he was going to do all the work himself and for us to mostly observe. But I had initially started the dialogue with his guides to find out what was his connection to the soldier’s life. What came through was very fascinating. He was at some point in another life or a concurrent life a very loyal and devoted soldier who died before completing his mission. He was a spiritual warrior and had died prematurely. He had died heartbroken knowing that he had let down his country and his king and so here he was stuck in this life re enacting his last days on the battle ground. I then asked his guides how he could resolve what he didn’t get to resolve during his mission. That’s when the boy started to communicate with his guides and what happened was that he physically got up and began to enact the story that I believe he needed to live out on that battle field. So he got up from the table and started to go through the motions of taking out his sword and going into battle. As he fought he was telling a story of his love for his king and country. At the same time I understood that this was a battle for the moral development of his psyche much like the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna at the beginning of the battle. He went through this enactment process with different scenes. The rest of us in the room became the witness. With each progression he learned an important lesson became “wiser” and moved on. At the end of the session it was when he assumed the posture of an ascetic and began to do the blessings.

I saw him for I think two more sessions after that and his mother said that his obsession with being a soldier had completely subsided. In its place we could see a much calmer and reverent young boy emerge.

Of course there is something to be said about writing about the experience compared to the actual experience. But I think this covers the gist of it.

Ellie

Post #15
C Michael Smith wrote on June 2, 2009 at 2:08pm
Hi Ellie,

Thank you for sharing this wonderful vignette in some detail. It resonates, for me, with a new 60 year old man who recently told me he had spent his whole life in military history and fantasy and accomplished nothing significant with his life, and it finally occurred to him that he is stuck and that there is some unfinished business from a previous life.

Here you show us that kind of transpersonal phenomenon, and the completing, clearing, and hearing process so that this young boy was able to move forward. It is doubly fascinating because it is a young boy, and how easy the process came for him.

Like you I also center and clear, by smudging (with Palo Santo and sage) and a little flute music before and after sessions. I see clients in the evening, so I am able to spend a significant amount of time centering and opening the heart before I see clients. I have always felt this really helps in the work I do. My office is in the city, I live in secluded woodlands. Spending my mornings with the trees and all the green energy and solitude help as I enter the city to work with clients and help them center and be less caught in the 10,000 things.

I agree with you that it is a blessing that we can have this kind of conversation today, living three time zones apart.

I have invited some friends from Crows Nest to join in these and other discussions, here and I see some are here. I look forward to their input as well.

Joanne, you have worked with autistic children, and am wondering if you have some input regarding any of this.

Thank you for this wonderful space Ellie.
Mikkal

Post #16
You wrote on June 2, 2009 at 3:48pm

Hi Mikkal,

I would love to know how your work with the 60 yr old man will progress. Is he open to shamanic work? Yes, it sounds like he has been stuck for most of his life. Sad that it has taken him this long to recognize it. But, he is lucky to have come across you and if he is ready, willing and able, he should be able to do some good work with you. Please feel free to share his progress here.

Also, yes, Jennifer already emailed me and gave an extensive background of herself. We emailed a little bit about children and spirituality and because I know there are other women following this thread who are interested in this area I will go ahead and start another discussion box on this topic and would like to invite other parents and/or healers who work with children and are interested in the intercept of spirituality and children to visit that thread and share their knowledge and experiences.

In Sufism, it is the belief that those who become seekers of the Divine later in life and who have the proclivity for walking a spiritual path, already enter this world with that attribute intact and that desire and longing to know and be known cannot be taught. That is why, it is believed, so few people embark on a spiritual path (so few are of course relative to the number of people who live on earth).

Can you share your understanding of how Native American shamans view this area? In other words, can a person who would otherwise not embark on this path be taught to become a shaman or must the person be called from within?

Ellie

Post #17
Michael Smith wrote on June 9, 2009 at 9:59am

Hi Ellie: I’ll keep you posted as things develop with the man mentioned above.

As for Native American views regarding entering the world with a certain level of spiritual awakening and development, there is no single view. Some tribal traditions throughout the Americas, South, Central, and North do hold to reincarnation, others do not. My Iachak teacher, Don Alverto Taxo claims to have reincarnated in the same tribal lineage as an Iachak (shaman) for more than 500 years, the length of a pacha (a unit of space/time) so that he could carry forward the pachakuti prophecy which was decided on about 520 years ago. An interesting claim paralleling some Tibetan claims of reincarnating within a lineage and becoming a Tulku. But there is no uniformity in such views. What is fairly common is the emphasis upon listening to and following the heart, and being supported in this through sacred ceremonies, as a path anyone can follow, from whatever level of spiritual development they may be at.

I found amazing corresponds in the path I learned from don Alverto…tremendous resonances with the spirit of Rumi, and many resonances with Tibetan Buddhist wisdom…and don Alverto has a number of Tibetan Buddhist monks from Darmashala as apprentices, at his home in Ecuador.

As for the shamanic call, it can come unbidden, often through a crisis or illness, such as Black Elk had, or through suddenly visionary awakening and activity, such as I had in my youth. But it can also come through inward desire and questing for it. A Third way, somewhat less common in the Americas, is by tribal or clan selection. This has been a practice in some Tribes like the Cherokee, where shamanic type healing ceremonies and apprenticeship are passed down through a family or totem clan such as the Bird clan.

Hope I responded to your questions directly enough, but if I missed the gist, let me know. I’ve been away for a few days.

I am interest about the crux of what You see as the common ground between shamanism, Sufism, and psychotherapy, since all three come together in your own life and work, from what I gather.

Mikkal

Post #18
You wrote on June 9, 2009 at 5:36pm

Hi Mikkal,
Thank you for the lovely response. I too find that when the heart calls, it is wise to listen. In the end it doesn’t matter when or how you hear the calling. A calling is a calling and it can happen in a myriad of different ways. What remains important is that we listen to the call and follow it with the heart. It is amazing that when we are able to do that so much opens up for us.

As for your question, I believe the common ground among shamanism, Sufism and psychotherapy is that they offer me different ways of remembering. Based in different cultures in both Sufism and shamanism, the soul is awakened/retrieved to remember itself and its connection to all that there is through sacred ceremony, invocation, prayer, chant, meditation, and journey. In psychotherapy, more specifically through Jungian and transpersonal views the same holds true through the use of imagery, archetypes, complexes, altered states, etc.
I resonate with all these approaches, I just experience them differently depending on which lens or cloak I wear. As a Sufi my heart is opened through the beauty of poetry, philosophy and spirituality of my culture. As a psychotherapist I am able to listen and use dialogue as a tool for uncovering what lies hidden in the psyche and as a shaman I walk these different paths hand in hand with spirit.

How about you? What is the common ground for you?

Ellie

Post #19
Cmichael Smith wrote on June 10, 2009 at 12:15pm

Like a good sobhat, Ellie, your response to my question, and handing it back to me–made me realize the topic deserves its own heading, so others may take note and possibly join us, as there are a number of shamanic healers and therapists here. So see my response on the topic CRUX OF SUFISM SHAMANISM AND PSYCHOTHERAPY

Thanks
Mikkal

Crux of Sufism, Shamanism & Psychotherapy (Part II)

To follow…